B2X5 LPG conversion with > 250000 km, reliability?

[B308]

Hi

First of all sorry for writing in english here

There´s a lot of experience on this forum when it comes to LPG so I hope someone can shed a light.


My brother is looking to build/get a very reliable 9-5 Estate converted to LPG for at least the next 200000 kms. He´s doing around 40000 km every year. The car will be a work tool most of the time, one doesn´t like beeing stranded in the middle of nowhere! He would be happy with just 175-200 pk.

He needs lots of cargo room and currently has a 2003 9-5 Estate B235E with 352.000 km on it. Should an LPG conversion be even considered with such a high milleage?
The car pulls very well, last PCV is built, 100% synthetic oil every 10000 km.

In ebay there seem to appear some B204 engines with +- 130000 kms on them for around 1000 Euro, are the stronger T5 internals also recomended for long term reliability with LPG, or at 175-200 pk the important part are the valves

Late 9-5 Vector/Aero Estates with the B235 and around 200000 km already go for 7000-8000 Euros.

There´s also for sale a local 2005 9-5 Vector Estate with the B205 with 235000 km for +- 2000 Euros.
New head (complete) and crankshaft bearing can be found on ebay for +- 1600 euros.
If we put a new head on this B205 with 235000 km (since LPG will be harder on the valves) and new crankshaft bearings can you expect the B205 engine to last for another 200.000 kms

Of course things like Throttle body, Crankshaft sensor, Cassettes, Thermostat and temp sensor, lambda sensor, MAP cleaning, Coolant bypass valve and fuel and water pump would all be done too to prevent beeing left stranded.

I´m using myself a V6 9-5 LPG, but I´m not doing even half the miles he´s doing!

A Honda/Mazda Estate etc is a more sensible option, but he wants to stay with Saab for some more years! Again sorry for writing in english!

Dank

[davidjoost]

Dear B308,

Welcome to our Dutch Saabforum! No problem that you're writing in English, most of us are educated and can read and write in English quite well.

When discussing reliability of a 9-5, it seems that you are already really well informed about the weaknesses of this model and the 4-cylinder engines. You mention a long list of parts: "things like Throttle body, Crankshaft sensor, Cassettes, Thermostat and temp sensor, lambda sensor, MAP cleaning, Coolant bypass valve and fuel and water pump would all be done too to prevent beeing left stranded."

If that's what you're planning to do, you should be able to 'build' a very reliable 9-5, no matter the mileage. Good maintenance in the past can positively effect future reliability, but there are no certainties. A car with 350k on the highway suffers less than a car that has done 200k of mixed roads and city traffic. Since it's hard to check which scenario is true for the car you're looking at, the only thing you can check is the overall optical condition and maintenance history.

Since my mother's 9-5 Aero was one of the first cars on this forum that was converted to LPG, I've done quite some research on all the options and possibilities. Before the 9-5 Aero, we had een 9-5 2.0t running on LPG. Looking back at the experiences with both cars, I would recommend the B235 in Aero-trim (230/250/260 hp) or 2.3T (220 hp) spec, since these two versions are equiped with Mitsubishi TD04 turbochargers that appear to last longer than the Garret turbochargers of the 2.0t / 2.3t. (150 - 170/185 hp). Fuel consumption is similar for all 4-cylinders. However, proper use in the end determines long-term endurance of turbocharged engines. Giving the oil sufficient time to heat up and letting the engine run for one minute as it cools down after a long ride. Making regular oil-changes.

Another thing that is important to take into account is the cylinder head valves, that will not last forever under the higher combution temperatures of LPG. A valve-saver oil injection system can be a nice addition, with for example Flashlube of JLM. You can count on a decreased engine compression after running between 100k to 150k on LPG, and a revision may be required. Then you can replace them with reinforced valves that last a lot longer.

Finally, what options do you have in terms of LPG-convertors and systems? In the Netherlands Vialle was by far the most popular system by Saab, as it was also recommended by the Dutch Saab organization. This is a maintenancefree system with liquid LPG-injection (LPi). The alternatives from Prins, BRC and others all work with evaporating LPG and therefore regularly need replacement of filters. In my opinion this is older and inferior technology, but there are a lot of satisfied LPG-drivers with a Prins-system on-board their Saab. To give you an impression, we also have a list of fast Saabs running on LPG that you can find here:
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=131630

So I would like to hear what options you have in terms of LPG-systems and if you can find an experienced converter that has done Saabs before. Saving a few hundred can come back at you with poor installation and malfunction. So don't go for the cheapest option. This is also true for the car you're buying. The engine may last forever if you give it regular TLC, but things like the chassis, steeringhouse, airconditioning, and so on also wear and tear overtime and may cost you extra maintenance.

[B308]

David,

Thank you much for the welcome and information.

As to your questions I looked for installers today.

Some luck....an installer ~ 70 kms away here in northern Spain does Vialle LPi at around 2700 Euros for the 4 cylinder LPi install. He´s done other turbo cars but not a single T5 or T7 Saab.
Also searched in southern France, "at the corner" from here. No luck. Saabs are even rarer there than here. There's only one installer (~500 kms to the south in Madrid) who's done some T7 Saabs, not with LPi though. How often do LPG pumps have to be changed for proper reliability?
By the way on the internet I red some LPi users saying the idle to be more diesel-like ?

For some reason (probably lack of experience) most LPG installers are a lot more confortable staying below 200 pk with 4 cylinders. Some even won´t do LPG on a HPT like an Aero.

I have found a 2005 2.3T 220 pk Auto Vector Estate with original navigation and 155.000 km (3 owners though).

Are reinforced valves fairly easy to find and install? I already have some dutch words in my head just by hours of reading this forum on "koprevisie" etc knowing english and german does help a little but of course it´s difficult to get it 100% even with Google translator.

T5 valves may fit on the T7 head?

P.S: Very interesting info, I also have to search about the 9-5 steeringhouse problems , I didn´t know about them. Steering pump preventive replacement too?

Bedankt

[gertram]

Spain. That's much more difficult. I had to take a lot of detours to get LPG over there so I suppose installers are few and far between.

Vialle takes a lot of expertese. The software of the older systems could only be altered by the factory. The software of their newer systems is open for Vialle installers to alter. But it's only a few years old so not many of the installers will have experience.
The pumps of the last couple of years are pretty good. The early types had a lot of problems and most specialist will only fit a expensive new one.

Vialle is a nice system. Will give you about as much HP's as on petrol. Systems without liquid injection will have about 10% less power.
We have a lot of Vialle installers in the Netherlands, it's a Dutch factory. If I were to live in Spain I would not fit it unless the installer made at least one succesfull conversion to a similar car.

Italy has a lot of LPG cars running and a lot of fabricators. There's one I know that has liquid injection as well: ICOM. Maybe you have more luck finding an installer for an Italian system with T7 experiance near you?


T5 valves will not fit a T7 head, the stems are thicker.

[B308]

Gertram,

I agree with you, certainly in western europe Italy and the Netherlands and Belgium are the countries where LPG conversions/good installers are easier to find.

LPG is fairly easy to source nowadays, in my area there are four LPG stations at less than 30 kms away.

How often would you have to change filters with the older LPG technology systems -no LPi-?

What would you call a similar car to a T7 Saab though? Just searching for an installer who´s done another Euro3 four pot inline turbo cars?

Bedankt

[millerman]

My Vialle installation has 5 injectors instead of 4. The 5th one is inserted at the air intake pipe that goes across the engine to the throttle body. The software is actually for a 5-cylinder Volvo engine (a T5), but the injection is tweaked to get the right performance since it was running a bit too lean. This is not standard material and I only wanted to go to a renowned specialist which happened to be about 1km from my home at that time. If I were you I'd look more into the systems used by LPG specialists near you. In my experience it never really works optimally right after installation. So it's better to have someone nearby to assist.

Good luck with your decisions!

[gertram]

With similar I meant a T7 with about the same power. A four cilinder turbo from another fabricator would change much more factors in my opinion.
Going above 50 HP per cilinder will put the system to the test, not many cars out there will reach these figures. Most LPG injectors will produce less than what is needed for this number. The Keihin injectors Prins use (the best ones around for vaporizing systems) will go to 60 HP. Probably better to keep a little margin though.
There are installers that let the car automatically switch to petrol when the power is really on. Getting the switch point flawless is hard though.

[B308]

Double post (sorry)

[B308]

Thank you much Millerman and Gertram too.

I would really appreciate if someone could please further elaborate on the lpg periodical head/valve revisions (Koprevisie).
Saab engine parts are difficult enough to source so better know beforehand...hope it won't have to be done to my V6 too!
So in the B2X5 engines at under 200 pk this head revision should only consist about putting new valves in , the rest of the head will hold the higher lpg combustion temperatures OK

Bedankt

[millerman]

Yes, in my experience that is the case. The valves themselves become damaged and rough on the edges. It really depends a lot on how you use your installation. I drive mostly on cruise control at 100-130km/h. If you go full throttle a lot, the wear will probably be more extensive.

In my experience it takes somewhere between 150-250km before you need to refurbish the valves. That is a wide bandwidth, because there's a lot of factors in play, where the most important one is the state of the valves before you convert to LPG. Usually this is a pretty unknown factor. Pricewise it can be interesting to actually get a whole new cylinder head and just replace it completely. If you can find an affordable specimen.

[B308]

Thanks. I did a search for reinforced valves but I didn't find anything yet.
150-250.000 km doesn't sound bad at all.
Putting new valves in sounds more complicated than replacing for example a head gasket.
There was this 98 2.3t Saab who did 1 million km with lpg it would be nice to know how many engine heads/valve sets he replaced.

[millerman]

Usually when people talk about reinforced valves it is said that the valves from BioPower engines are supposed to be stronger and better with heat resistance. In later model years (>MY06) these would have been standard. The exact truth is unknown to me to be honest. But this should mean that any new cylinder head on the market should have the reinforced valves.

[robert wiering]

Hello, we have a lot of experience in installing LPG systems in SAAB 9-5 B235R, B235 E and B308 V6. The last one we had installed is a new BRC system , consisting of a BRC ECU , high output LPG converter , the wiring harness , pressure sensor, lpg filter, 70 liter LPG reservoir in the sparewheel moulding and 6 injectors. the tuned engine( 240 BHP) runs perfectly both on LPG and fuel, without any misfire and switches to LPG not even 5 mins after cold start. In y opinion a very good system and due to the fact that the LPG gasinjection works with vaporized gas, no pumps or whatsoever are involved , resulting in lower maintenance costs. One condition: the LPG installer must be a reknowned one, who takes care in especiaslly the injector-drilling of the inlet manifold.
Our experience with the B235 and B205 on LPG is the same: the injector driulling must be beyond any doubt, then the car can run impeccably on LPG.

Apart from that: friend of mine in Barcelona , Joan, has his own SAAB workshop: tallers Berma. very good in SAAB and a nice guy . just in case you might need a mechanic to work on your engine or cylinder head.

regards

rob wiering haarlem

[gertram]

5 minutes is pretty long in my opinion. My old Necam G3 system with central plunger will take 2 minutes maximum when it's -5 outside. In the summer it will switch within the minute.

[B308]

Bedankt.

Quick update.

Decided to take my brothers 2003 2.3 LPT to a compression test (proper quality) and we were very positively surprised for 352.000 km.

Cylinder one: 14.5 bar, Cylinder two 14.5 bar, Cylinder three 14.9 bar, Cylinder four 14.2 bar.

So +- 5% difference between Cyl 3 and Cyl 4.

Head gasket was never done, its all originaI. Considering what you see on the internet we were expecting much worse data, what are the typical compression numbers when new?

It may not be so crazy for him to expect another 200.000 km from this engine and install lpg at such a high milleage?

Thanks for the answers