Het is gelukt: zelf van zwarte een rode APC maken

[bennie]

Ik rij met bijna 0.5 basisboost.
Het fijne van een hooge basisboost is dat de turbo (apc) er vloeiender in komt en de druk zal minder snel zakken hoger in de toeren (in de 4de versnelling bij 6000rpm 0.7 bar )
Met een standaard apc die ik uit een red arrow gesloopt heb, alleen de p en f pot goed ingesteld!
Het nadeel is dat de auto met warm weer kan pingelen op basisboost en de apc de druk niet verder kan terug schroefen. (klop ledje is dan erg handig)
Ik merkte gisteren al dat de auto al pingel gaf bij 0.6 bar na even in de file te hebben gestaan, had ook ron95 erin zitten .

[Niels]

Mijn basisdruk is even hoog als de volledruk, net geprobeerd. Beide een beetje boven het midden van het oranje.

[MISTY]

Mijn basisdruk is even hoog als de volledruk, net geprobeerd. Beide een beetje boven het midden van het oranje.

Dan rij je nu een lpt

Je zou toch tegen het rooie moeten pieken!

[bennie]

Controleer eerst de zekering van de APC.

Hier heb je wel wat aan denk ik .




If the APC-system does not work according the "Normal Function" you can troubleshoot it fairly simple.
This guide assumes the following:
- Engine is free from any mechanical errors
- ALL vacuum hoses and ALL hoses between the air filter and intake manifold are controlled thoroughly for leaks
- The APC-box is not modified. If the box is modified the descriptions about how high the APC gauge shall rise at max.

Troubleshooting process if the APC gauge doesn't rise over the middle of the yellow field:

1. turn on the ignition (the headlights should now be activated), but do not start the engine. open the bonnet.

If the APC-valve is "chattering" all the time, it means that the APC believes one of the following:
- Turbo boost over 0.4 Bar
- Engine is "knocking"
- RPM is over 2300 RPM

none of these alternatives shall be present if the engine is off, so the APC must get wrong information.
Most probable cause is that the APC believes that the boost is high, even though that is not the case.
The pressure sensor, which gives info about the boost pressure, uses a resistance value that increases with increased boost pressure. If a breakage occurs in the
circuit the resistance becomes "infinite" which leads to that the APC believes the boost is "infinite" and thus trying to decrease the boost pressure.
De most probable cause is a faulty Pressure sensor.
Start by checking the pressure giver and the cables.
If the pressure sensor is ok, then the fault might reside within the APC box. Try to exchange to another APC-box.


2. Try to disconnect and reconnect the APC-valve electrical connector.

There shall be a "click" from APC-valve when the connector is removed and inserted.
If this procedure is repeted a few times the APC-valve might chatter a few seconds after the connector is inserted.
This depends on that the APC-box has became "unstable" and this is normal.

If the APC-valve does not "click", check the following:
- fuse to the APC-system is not broken
- The connector to the APC-box is fastened
- On cars with the new APC-box (25 pin), verify that the brake light does not shine
- The connector on the APC-valve is not corroded/oxidised
- Resistance through the APC-valve should be aprox 27 ohm
- That it is not possible to "blow" through the APC-valve "R" connector whilst the APC-valve is disconnected

If the fault remains, check and clean the electrical connectors attached to the ground point on the radiator beam.
Measure then following:
- +12 & ground to the APC-box
- ground to the APC-valve
- verify the cable from the APC-box to the APC-valve
If the fault can't be found try to exchange the APC-box.
If it's possible to "blow" through the APC-valves "R connector. Then the valve is broken and needs to be replaced.

3. Test-drive the car with the APC-valve disconnected (base-boost)

The APC-gauge shall rise to the middle of the yellow field.
If the APC-gauge stays in the beginning of the yellow field the base-boost must be increased.
Remember the APC-gauge is not a precision instrument. To ensure correct setting of the base boost you'll need a graded boost gauge of good quality.

4. Connect the APC-valve connector and test-drive the car.

Find a long road going uphill and start to drive upwards on the fifth gear and on max 1500 RPMs.
"Floor it" and watch the APC-gauge.
If the APC-gauge rises over the middle of the yellow field when the RPM is lower than 2300 and then at aprox 2300 suddenly "falls" back to the middle of the
yellow field, there's a bad connection to the knock sensor.
The function that checks that the signal from the knock sensor is strong enough, is activated above aprox 2300 RPM. If the signal is to weak the APC-valve is
disconnected above aprox 2300 RPM.
Check the connector to the knock sensor for corrosion/oxidation. Clean the connectors. If the connectors looks like they aren't connecting good to the pins in the
knock sensor, carefully mod the connectors with a fine screwdriver to ensure good connection.
If the fault remains check the cables between the Knock sensor and the APC-box.

Troubleshooting process if the APC gauge rises into the red field:

Normally the APC-gauge shouldn't go into the red field (assuming the APC-box isn't modded). In some special situations the APC-gauge could temporary go in soem
millimetre into the red field, but it shouldn't stay there for longer periods of time.
It's not normal that the APC-system causes too high boost. Normally there's mechanical errors that causing it.
As a extra safety precaution there's a pressure guard. The pressure guard disconnects the fuel pump if the boosts increases too much.
Fuel cut @ T8 aprox 0.95 Bar
Fuel cut @ T16 aprox 1.1 Ba

When the boost pressures has droppe below the cut limit the fuel pump is started and the pattern might repeat it selves.

1. Verify the hoses to the APC-valve.

Check the hoses to the APC-valve thoroughly for cracks and verify they are correctly attached. The APC-valve got letters on the connectors and shall be connected
as follows:
- Hose from the APC-Valve "W" connector shall be connected to the Wastgate actuator
- Hose from the APC-Valve "R" connector shall be connected to the tube between the air filter and the turbo inlet
- Hose from the APC-Valve "C" connector shall be connected to the throttle body or to the turbo compressor housing. All depends on the engine type and the model
of the turbo.

2. Verify the Wastegate.

You'll need pressurised air to check the wastegate. Set the pressure of the compressor at 1.0 Bar MAX!
Loosen the hose connected to the "W" on the APC-valve. pressurise the wastegate actuator and verify that the wastegate actuator holds the air. Try to decrease
the pressure and check the Wastegate arm moves easily and does not stuck.
If the Wastegate actuator leaks, replace it.
If the wastegate is stuck it could be troublesome to fix it. If the wastegate actuator is the problem, exchange it.
If it's the Wastegate valve that is stuck you'll need to replace it, which leads to that a part of the turbo or the complete exhaust casing must be replaced.
You could try to oil the stuck parts, but due to heat the oil will disappear rather quick.

3. Check the APC-valve.

Disconnect the APC-valve. Try to "blow" through the different hose connectors. When APC-valve is disconnected it shall be possible to let air go between the "C"
and "W", but NOT through "R". If the valve is faulty, exchange it.

4. Verify the base boost.

Disconnect the electrical connector from the APC-valve and test drive.
The APC-gauge shall rise to the middle of the yellow field.
If the APC-gauge stays in the beginning of the yellow field the base-boost must be increased.
If the APC-gauge rises over the middle of the yellow field the base-boost must be decreased.

Remember the APC-gauge is not a precision instrument. To ensure correct setting of the base boost you'll need a graded boost gauge of good quality.

Troubleshooting process if the APC gauge does not want to enter the yellow field:

If the APC-gauge is in the white field during idle, but does not want to go further than the border between the white and the yellow fields at full throttle. Then the mnost likley cause is that the Wastegate arm has jumped of the wastgate valve. On some turbo models you could get some boost at higher RPM despite the wastegate arm is of the wastegate valve.

1. Verify that the Wastegate arm is mounted


2. Verify the base boost.


Writer: Anders Olsson, translated by: Widde

[Niels]

Damn guys, genoeg te checken dus Zodra ik weer tijd heb ga ik het lijstje maar eens nalopen, alvast bedankt voor de info!

[900 t8]

Wie weet of er een rode comp van een t16 in een t8 kan
Want volgens mij kun je die type m box nergens vinden in nederland
alvast bedankt voor jullie moeite

[SpeekTuning]

Wie weet of er een rode comp van een t16 in een t8 kan
Want volgens mij kun je die type m box nergens vinden in nederland
alvast bedankt voor jullie moeite

type M is ook nooit geleverd, maar alleen voor speciale doeleinden gebruikt!

Denk eraan dat als je de APC volgens specs. van M gaat modificeren, dat je dan een te weinig aan brandstof hebt!!

Bij meer vermogen, meer brandstof!! Niet alleen om het gewenste vermogen te halen, maar ook ivm koeling

groetne Sander

[bennie]

Hierbij nog wat info over het APC systeem .

Type M APC zat onder andere in de enduro.
Sander weet jij wat er in de type M APC zit? als je dit weet zou ik dit graag willen weten !

deze info hem ik al:

R42 3.82 kohm
R183 36.4 ohm
P pot 29.6 ohm
F pot 461 ohm
R40 ??
K pot ??






You've got an APC system in you SAAB (I hope). But what is it? and how does it work? and Is it possible to use it on other cars?

Well read on and see... and I'll now explain the function and parts of my 1988 Aero APC set-up. Earlier model will/might have different parts and different mount points.

Overview (Q&A)
Q: What does APC stand for?
A: Automatic Performance Control

Q: What does the APC do?
A: The APC controls the boost pressure. If "knock" occurs the APC lowers the boost pressure to a safe level. The boost follows the RPM.

Q: How does the APC control the boost?
A: The APC controls a APC valve, which controls the flow of air to the Waste gate. With this set-up, the APC makes it possible to increase the boost from the "base boost pressure" to the ordinary boost pressure by "bleeding" some of the air from the waste gate.

Q: What is "base boost pressure"?
A: The "base boost pressure" is the level of boost pressure when the waste gate opens. "Base boost pressure" can be achieved when the high-comp side of the turbo is connected directly to the waste gate (this is the standard way of doing a turbo application without any boost control except for the waste gate).

Q: How does the APC know when to open/close the APC valve to control the boost?
A: The APC does not just open and close the valve. The APC oscillates the valve at aprox 12 Hz over a specific RPM value. and then alters the duty cycle of the open and close pulse to send more or less air to the waste gate.

Q: So the APC sets a boost value above the "base boost" and then just holds it there. Why couldn't the base boost pressure always be the higher boost value? Why is the APC needed in that case?
A: The answer for that is, Fuel quality. In a high boost turbo application the quality of the fuel is very important. If you got low-grade fuel, the boost pressure must be lower to minimize "knock". If you got high-grade fuel the boost can be higher and more power could be produced and there would be no knock. APC controls the boost pressure so no knock should occur. If knock occurs the APC will lower the boost to ensure the safety of the engine. So the APC will adjust the boost pressure to the maximum power outtake for the fuel you are running on.

Q: How does the APC sense knock?
A: On the engine block there is a knock sensor mounted. The sensor works like a microphone, which listens for "knock".

Q: How does the APC know what boost I'm running on?
A: To the intake manifold a pressure sensor is connected. This sensor is feeding the APC control unit the boost level.

Q: How do I set the boost pressure?
A: The "boost level" is set by the "F" pot inside the APC control unit
The "base boost" is set by the waste gate

Q: So if I I just turn the "F" pot all the way, then I will get more power?
A: Yes and No, you might increase the boost setting but due to other parameters that would not be enough. For example, fuel quality, fuel pressure, APC rise rate, etc.

Q: What about the other pot-s K&P?
A: The K-pot is the "knock" sensitivity setting, this shall never be altered unless you are an expert.
The P-pot is the "rise rate" of the boost level

Q: What's the "Rise Rate" vs. the "boost level"
A: The "boost level" is the wanted level that the boost pressure should stay.
The "rise rate" is how fast the APC control unit should try to reach the "boost level"

Q: Then I just maximize the "rise rate" to get the "boost level" up ASAP.
A: It's not that simple! If you set the "rise rate" to low. Then it will take too long for the "boost level" to reach the wanted level. And if you set the "rise rate" too high the "boost level" will overshoot the wanted "boost level" and this can seriously damage the engine.

Q: Can I recalibrate the "knock" sensitivity.
A: On a SAAB should this not be necessary! The K-pot should never ever be touched, If you do not know what you are getting into.

Q: How do I see if "knock" occurs?
A. It is not possible on a stock APC controller to see that. You may notice that the boost is lowered. But you can build a monitor LED with the help of the internal APC controller knock monitor and mount the LED on the dashboard.

Q: How do I use the internal "knock" monitor function in the APC controller?
A: You will need a ordinary LED and connect it to pin 19 on the APC controller connector. The pin will be "drawn to zero" (grounded) when the APC controller indicates "knock". Inside the APC controller there are resistors connected in serial with this function, so just connect the anode of the LED to +12v and the cathode of the LED to pin 19 with some wires and you should be set.

Q: What about runaway boost pressure?
A: Also included in the APC system there is a pressure guard that will cut the power to the fuel pump if the boost rises over a specific level. In high boost application the pressure guard must be recalibrated to a higher boost setting. Some people just bypasses the pressure guard with a wire. I would not recommend that. It's better to have a pressure guard just in case. I hope that I does not need to explain why.

Q: How do I set the higher boost cut level on the pressure guard?
A: You will need to turn the larger "screw" on the pressure guard "clockwise" (in) 1-1,5 turn. On a stock pressure guard this will rise the boost cut level to circa 1.3 bar. Do not touch the other smaller "screws"

Q: Is the APC system always activated?
A: Yes and No. The APC controller is powered up when the engine is running. But the APC valve will be disconnected when you apply the brake and sometimes when the cruise control activates/deactivates.

Q: I want to "Left brake" with full boost, how do I do that?
A: You will need to bypass the APC valve brake switch with a wire.

Q: How does it all fit together?
A: look at the picture below, and use the included parts list below to work it out.

Picture borrowed with permission from Jan
1. Knock sensor
2. APC control unit
3. Pressure sensor
4. APC valve
5. Distributor (RPM signal)

Q: Can I use the SAAB APC system on an other car?
A: I can't see why not! the only trick is the calibration of the "knock" detection. Otherwise it should be a bolt on.

Included parts
What is needed? and what does that "dohickey" do?

APC control unit

Input: Electric signal from..
- Pressure sensor
- Knock sensor
- RPM
Output: Electric signal to APC valve
Function: Control of the APC system
Mount point: Engine room, right front.

APC valve

Input: Electric signal from APC control unit
Output: Airflow from high-comp side of Turbo to waste gate and low-comp side of turbo
Function: Controlling the airflow to the waste gate.
Mount point: above radiator

Pressure sensor

Input: Air pressure
Output: Electric signal (ohm)
Function: Feeds the APC control unit with info about the current boost pressure
Mount point: inside cabin, behind the "knee board"

Knock sensor

Input: Mechanic vibration
Output: Electric signal (ohm)
Function: Feeds the APC control unit with info about knock, if any occurs
Mount point: On the engine block below the intake manifold.

Pressure guard

Picture borrowed with permission from Jan
Input: Air pressure
Output: Electric signal (ohm)
Function: Cuts the fuel pump if the boost pressure rises over a specific level
Mount point: inside cabin, behind the "knee board"

Turbo

Input: Air pressure
Output: Air pressure
Function: Uses the exhaust from the engine to pump air into the engine
Mount point: Front left side of the engine, mounted on the exhaust manifold.

Waste gate actuator

Input: Air pressure
Output: Mechanical actuation of the valve-valve.
Function: to "bleed" exhaust fumes from the exhaust turbine wheel in the turbo to lower the speed of the turbine. which leads to lowering of the boost pressure.
Mount point: On the turbo or right beside it.


Gr, Bennie

[Style&Co]

hé Benny,

je engels is voortreffelijk moet ik zeggen

[SpeekTuning]

Hierbij nog wat info over het APC systeem .

Sander weet jij wat er in de type M APC zit? als je dit weet zou ik dit graag willen weten !

hmm....vast wel ergens. Als ik de gegevens tegenkom zal ik ze posten. Maar let wel op met die 8 kleppers. Deze zitten snel met een tekort aan brandstof hoor, dus niet zonder meer dat wieltje sneller laten spoolen zonder een extra aan brandstof voorziening.

gr. Sander

[bennie]

Hierbij nog wat info over het APC systeem .

Sander weet jij wat er in de type M APC zit? als je dit weet zou ik dit graag willen weten !

hmm....vast wel ergens. Als ik de gegevens tegenkom zal ik ze posten. Maar let wel op met die 8 kleppers. Deze zitten snel met een tekort aan brandstof hoor, dus niet zonder meer dat wieltje sneller laten spoolen zonder een extra aan brandstof voorziening.

gr. Sander

Ik rij intussen met een 8 klepper APC en heb deze goed ingesteld, niet gemodficeerd! (Nr 7567704) komt uit een red arrow .
Dit bevalt erg goed, zelfs zo goed dat deze het nog beter doet als een red of mod box!
De druk blijft veel langer hoog en hij spoelt veel mooier en vloeiender op.
Als ik deze box kan omsolderen naar een type M zal hij helemaal mooi opspoelen en druk vasthouden, hoop ik
Ik heb een 16 klepper Lucas dus met de voorzien van brandstof gaat het wel goed denk ik.

Bedankt Style&Co .
Zou jij even de (kleine) moeite willen nemen om het te vertalen!?

Gr, Benjamin alias Bennie

[Style&Co]

@Benjamin; vertalen komt in orde als ik ooit nog es een heeele lange periode thuis kom te zitten... pas de problème

[900 t8]

hmm ok sleutelen lukt me wel maar ik heb bijna geen ervaring met k-jetronic. Maar ik weet wel dat elfrink andere brandstofdrukregelaars verkoopt voor t8 (athans dat is me verteld )

maar welke moet ik dan hebben weet iemand iets voor mijn T8 (155pk) uit 86
of andere leuke ideetjes.

En hoe zorg ik er voor dat mijn druk senser niet de fuel cut inschakelt.
mijn apc box nr is 7524119.
En mijn laatste vraag aan julie is kan er nou wel of geen rooie apc in enheeft het dan wel eigelijk nut???

[MISTY]

je kunt een rode apc gebruiken maar zou voor iets anders kiezen

je kunt jou orginele apc kast makkelijk mod, de fuelcut bijstellen, en wastegate opdraaien.

met deze mod heb je snel 20/30 pk extra

[900 t8]

Ja ok maar als ik me waste gate afstel gaat me bassis druk ook omhoog toch?

Ik heb ook op 900earo.com gezeten en daar heb je een mod voor je apc. Dat je wel je bassis druk houd (ja iets meer 0.5bar) maar wel door kan pieken naar 1.5 bar maar er moet meer benzine bij en dat is het probleem hoe krijg ik dan meer benzine.

Brandstofdruk
Maar welke brandstofdruk regelaar moet ik dan hebben
Moet ik ook een brandstof pomp hebben met meer opbrengst
of moet ik andere injectoren met meer opbrengst hebben ik weet het niet.
Ik kan wel sleutelen ik trek dat hele blok zo uit elkaar easy .
Maar tunen is echt een vak apart (ik ben nog maar 24. Deze auto en zijn brandstofsysteem was er al toen ik nog moest leren knikkeren. )
K-Jetronic is echt voor mijn tijd.
Ik heb binnen kort een 8v kop.Laat ik helemaal reviseren en me inlaad en uitlaad kanalen behandelen. ( die ga ik zelf doen)


En jongens laten we eerlijk zijn brandstof lucht verhouding is echt meestelijk belangrijk. Tenzij je een achter tuin vol hebt met t8 blokken
Kan iemand mij vertellen wat te doen