Update voor navigate met 2018 kaarten!

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gudmundje
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Re: Update voor navigate met 2018 kaarten!

Bericht door gudmundje » ma 19 aug, 2019 13:19

Zeker interesse maar moet wel 100 % werken. Die 'je kan niet meer terug..." baart me wat zorgen.
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Re: Update voor navigate met 2018 kaarten!

Bericht door Frank95Ng » ma 19 aug, 2019 21:09

joehoe! 8)

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Re: Update voor navigate met 2018 kaarten!

Bericht door Steve-O » di 20 aug, 2019 7:16

Hacken = goed! Once you go hack, you never go back.

Ooit een Navi van MIO gehad, via downloads met hackinstructie overgezet naar IGO-navi software die normaal alleen rechtstreeks aan autofabrikanten wordt geleverd. Nog nooit zo'n goedwerkende navi gahad.(ok, dat is een gedateerde ervaring) Een slechtwerkende navigatie leidt af van het verkeer en kan nare gevolgen hebben, net zoals met je mobieltje bezig zijn tijdens het rijden.

Als dat met die pijltjes is opgelost, zou ik direct gaan updaten. Helaas rijdt ik geen 9-5NG.

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Re: Update voor navigate met 2018 kaarten!

Bericht door DionHPT » vr 23 aug, 2019 12:01

De eerste gesprekken zijn op gang. Dus hopelijk na mijn vakantie (5 september) heb ik hier meer te melden :)
TiD, V6, T5, T7 & T8 tuning addict! Wil je je Saab getuned hebben? Stuur een PM :)

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BMW 318is '89 B204 DionHPT 265 pk / 390 nm
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Re: Update voor navigate met 2018 kaarten!

Bericht door bollman » di 03 sep, 2019 0:09

Greetings from Sweden!
My Dutch is limited to vaguely getting the gist of things since I know German, English and of course Swedish so if one looks beyond some strange spelling of words, it's not too difficult to follow. :) I will write this post in English though as I think most of you are ok with that.

I'll start with explaining who I am. My name is Patrik, or better known by SAABers in Sweden as Bollman (long story). The navigation update mentioned here is my doing (look at the picture and you will see some shameless self-promoting in the lower lefter corner of the coverage map). I bought a beautiful ng9-5 from Belgium in 2017 and the old map data of the navigation has bugged me ever since. Earlier this year, I decided to do something about it.
Manne's is the workshop I service my cars at, and since I don't have a business, I have given Manne's the update I made for my car and I'm helping them out to perform the update. Philip who owns the workshop is a long time friend and fellow SAAB enthusiast.

I understand that communicating with the guys at the workshop might not be the easiest since none of them are really keen on speaking English, and certainly not Dutch (Philip is fluent in Finnish though, but that won't help you guys) so I thought I'll pop in here to answer questions about the update since I can tell there are already rumors flying around which are not true.
Also, since I'm pretty fluent in English, I've promised to help in arranging meet-ups in at least Holland and Germany so that they will be able to offer the update to more ng9-5 owners without the need to drive all the way to Sweden.

I know that this post may come under scrutiny by the forum admins and be seen as a commercial offering, but I will not sell anything, only Manne's will sell the update and I will only provide contact with Manne's and offer "pre-sales support" by answering questions about the update.
If the admins find it offensive, I'll happily comply with what they decide.

So, I take it you've all read the page describing the update already, so I don't have to go through all that, but I will comment on the points set out by U-poll in the first post of this thread:
1. No, the hard drive will not be "hacked". It needs to be unlocked so that it is possible to modify it's content. As soon as the hard drive is reinserted into the navigation, it will become locked again, so the unlock is only temporary during the update process.
2. No, you will not have to drive to Sölvesborg. Philip has already booked a trip to Holland and I'm working on building mobile "update-stations" to bring. The current setup is not mobile at all and would probably not survive the trip unscathed. As soon as the stations are finished, he'll start looking for a good place to set it up and start offering the update in Holland and Germany. It will be one or a few days only, and probably not recurring very often. ;) The update will most probably not be "licensed" since it's quite complicated to get hold of the hardware needed to perform the update, and I have to be "on duty", should any part of the process fail, or the hardware malfunction. I have a daytime job and cannot provide the support for many workshops.
3. Yes, it will cost €300. Remember though, it will include a complete backup of your hard drive stored at Manne's. It will be invaluable the day the drive stops working, and you can be sure it will since they are mechanical and soon to enter their teens. With the backup, it will be possible to recover your navigation by applying the backup to another drive of the same make and model (these are industrial grade drives, not ordinary laptop hard drives). As Manne's will store your backup, they will be able to send you a bit-correct replacement drive, should yours stop working.
4. Yes, there are "bugs". The biggest being voice control of the media functions and the navigation. Voice control of the bluetooth handsfree still works, as that ECU has it's own voice control software, independent of the navigation. There are also, as described, some missing guiding arrows at motorway exits. This does not affect the SID or the HUD, they continue to work as intended with guiding arrows.
5. No, it is not irreversible. It is quite simple to revert to your original map and voice data! It still requires the help of Manne's but the update is totally non-destructive and reverting to the old data has no ill effects on the system.

I continue work on the update and hope to be able to solve the guiding arrows at motorway exits, I'm pretty confident that it will be resolved eventually. When it comes to voice control, it will be a lot more difficult to resolve. The navigation is old and rare, and the voice recognition software is old and made by IBM. Every navigation model is different and the voice control software is an integral part of the data and cannot easily be transferred from one model to another. "Transplanting" the old SAAB voice control software into this new dataset will require countless hours of hard and tedious work and since I never really use it, I've focused on making the maps useful. I will continue to work on it, but I don't have high hopes of it ever working, unfortunately.

So, that will conclude my first post here and I hope I've sorted some of the misunderstandings. If you have any questions about the update or for that matter, the unit itself, feel free to ask. Spending months analyzing code and dismantling the unit has gained me quite a lot of knowledge. No, I will not tell you how to do it yourself ;) I don't want to get any flak from anyone destroying their expensive unit.

All the best!

//P

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Re: Update voor navigate met 2018 kaarten!

Bericht door bollman » di 03 sep, 2019 0:19

Come to think of it, I might add some info on why the backup is vital.
The E800 update modified the unit to disregard the failing flash-memory circuits that plagued the navigation. The solution was to use the hard drive as replacement storage. So, after applying the E800 update, the hard drive is a vital part to getting the unit working.
Making this kind of modification is not trivial, and from my findings, the data seems to not reside in the file system, rather at fixed areas of the drive, hard coded into E800. This means that replacing the drive with another model, not identical to the original may mess up the unit quite badly. I've seen this happen and the only common denominator for these units is that they have non-original hard drives of the same size, but most probably with a different geometry and/or ata command set making the flash-replacement fail.
This also means that you have to make a bit-correct backup of the drive so that it can be applied to a new drive exactly as it was on the original, or the data may be corrupted in ways not visible to standard hard drive tools.

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U-Poll
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Re: Update voor navigate met 2018 kaarten!

Bericht door U-Poll » di 03 sep, 2019 8:32

@Patrik @Bollman: what an impressive thing you have done! :applause: You have managed to crack the navigation system of the 9-5NG, it is the one and only disappointing aspect of these cars. Thank you very much for this – and making it available for all of us!

In reply to your comprehensive explanation: “temporarily unlocking” is indeed much better then “hacking” the system, apologies for my choice of words. It is also good to hear that this could be reversed, if needed. From all the mentioned ‘bugs’ in the system, the only one that worries me are the ‘missing exit arrows’. Could you explain this a little more? Are all the arrows missing (on the main screen) or just a few?

Otherwise, I would like this update (upgrade!) rather today than tomorrow! So as soon as you or Manne’s know any dates to visit the Netherlands for an Upgrade-My-NG-Navigation-Day: please let me know, I will participate! You (and/or Manne’s) could perhaps try to contact any of the former Saab dealers as a location for this. As you might have seen in this topic, quite a number of fellow NG owners are also interested in this upgrade (probably more once an upgrade-day will be organised).

EDIT: The fellow NG owners who responded in this topic and might be interested are: me (…), mfvb, Christiaan94, N207, Buckje, gudmundje, Frank95Ng, Steve-O. (please note that some have reservations, especially on the ‘missing arrows’).
Eerst 2CV4'77 en R14'79, toen Saabjes:
- 99GL '78
- 900GL '87
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- 9-5 Estate 2.0t '02 (245pk/360Nm)
- 9-5 Sport Estate 2.3T Aero Griffin '09 (290pk/420Nm)
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En een project: Saab 95L V4 '75 - Trollewop

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Re: Update voor navigate met 2018 kaarten!

Bericht door bollman » di 03 sep, 2019 10:03

You're welcome!

I will try to explain the "missing arrows" as detailed as possible.
So, the navigation can show directions on 3 displays: The big display in the centre console, the SID in the speedometer and in the HUD on the windshield.
The navigation has 2 different "modes" of displaying guiding arrows on the big display:
When driving on motorways (roads classified as motorways by the map data, usually dual (or more) carriageways with pretty high speeds), roads bearing this sign:
Afbeelding
And then driving on any other road.

When NOT driving on motorways, the guidance shows up in the top right corner as a little image showing "next step" on the trip, and the distance to this "step":
Afbeelding
Anytime you get to a roundabout or the navigation feels like it should give you more detailed guidance, the entire right part of the screen will show exactly what to do:
Afbeelding
And this screen has actually gotten a new feature, a sort of "lane assist":
Afbeelding
All this works as expected and all information in HUD and SID are unaffected.

Then, when driving on motorways, the right part of the screen shows a list of upcoming exits and if there are any services related to that exit (sorry no picture) and this information works as intended.
What DOESN'T work, is that when you are supposed to take an exit, the navigation should give you assistance regarding what the exit "looks like" and guiding arrows that shows that you should take the exit from the motorway, and in some cases, if there's an complicated exit, how to navigate the lanes of the exit. After the update, only the background is shown correctly but the arrows are gone, like this:
Afbeelding
What you should see here is an arrow pointing to the right directing you to take the exit. The number of the exit (no number on this exit) and what is show on the actual roadsigns are displayed, but as you can see, the guiding arrow is missing.
The SID and HUD both displays correct exit information!

In version 1.0 the arrows where there, but the background was missing. Unfortunately, so was the top right icons when not driving on the motorway so version 1.1 which is what we have right now are missing the arrows instead, but there are more working parts now than with 1.0.

I hope this makes sense :)
From my point of view, the missing arrows in 1.1 is not too bad, most exits are quite easy to navigate. I have only found one point at which time I was slightly disappointed and that was when driving through Stockholm and the motorway splits in 2 (considered an exit by the navigation), the exit guidance could have been nice there, but I relied on the HUD instead.

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Re: Update voor navigate met 2018 kaarten!

Bericht door Spatje » di 03 sep, 2019 12:46

Count me in as well
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Re: Update voor navigate met 2018 kaarten!

Bericht door DionHPT » di 03 sep, 2019 13:41

Cool! I already contacted Philip because of this update. Really nice initiative
TiD, V6, T5, T7 & T8 tuning addict! Wil je je Saab getuned hebben? Stuur een PM :)

9-3 SC 2.8T Aero '09 DionHPT 340 pk / 520 nm
BMW 318is '89 B204 DionHPT 265 pk / 390 nm
Mevr HPT: Clio RS '15 DionHPT 235 pk / 350 nm

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Re: Update voor navigate met 2018 kaarten!

Bericht door bollman » di 03 sep, 2019 14:00

Yes, I know, he said that he had been in contact with someone from Holland, but as I understood it, nothing had been decided. I also saw your post where the communication had not been entirely smooth ;)
Philip knows I have started communicating with ng9-5 owners via forums. He just wants to know where and when, haha.

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U-Poll
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Re: Update voor navigate met 2018 kaarten!

Bericht door U-Poll » di 03 sep, 2019 15:34

bollman schreef:
di 03 sep, 2019 14:00
...He just wants to know where and when...
Me as well !! The 'missing arrows' issue is acceptable for me (so only the highway arrows are missing on the main screen - but not on HUD and SID). I do hope it is decided quickly when they will visit the Netherlands! Is there any indication [yet] on the date?
Laatst gewijzigd door U-Poll op do 05 sep, 2019 22:33, 1 keer totaal gewijzigd.
Eerst 2CV4'77 en R14'79, toen Saabjes:
- 99GL '78
- 900GL '87
- 900C '88
- 9000CS Ebony '94
- 9-5 Estate 2.0t '02 (245pk/360Nm)
- 9-5 Sport Estate 2.3T Aero Griffin '09 (290pk/420Nm)
Nu:
9-5NG Turbo4 Aero XWD Exklusiv '11 - Hirsch (260pk/400Nm)
En een project: Saab 95L V4 '75 - Trollewop

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Re: Update voor navigate met 2018 kaarten!

Bericht door N207 » wo 04 sep, 2019 13:06

Thank you Patrick (Bollman) for the extensive and very informative responses in this thread.

You can count me in for a navigational update. We were planning a short holiday in Blekinge, but getting it in the Netherlands is a lot easier. Not nicer, but easier :wink: .

I keep following this and although I have no technical background, I largely understand you thorough explanation.

Tack för det!


Ronald.
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Re: Update voor navigate met 2018 kaarten!

Bericht door Gnillajt » do 05 sep, 2019 20:16

Count me in! Thanks for all the hard labour.
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Saab 93 cabrio 2002
Saab 900 cabrio MC 1991

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Re: Update voor navigate met 2018 kaarten!

Bericht door bollman » vr 06 sep, 2019 7:36

Update: I'm nearly done with the mobile "upgrade-stations". I'll try to find time to go to Manne's this weekend and drop off the hardware. From there, it's all about finding the when and where, so stay tuned!

The question is, where to go? I'd say as far south as possible in Holland should give more or less the entire Holland, Belgium and parts of Germany within reasonable driving distance. Perhaps Eindhoven would be a good bet?

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